Sweet Bebe Jeebus

"sm70- why not Duesenberg?" (sm70-whynotduesenberg)
09/16/2014 at 23:34 • Filed to: None

I'm reading Car & Driver's 2014/2015 Lightning Lap. Spoiler alert: The Camaro Z28 was faster around VIR than the Stingray. It was faster than the R8 V10. It was faster than the 911 Turbo S. It was, in fact, just a tenth of a second slower than the Ferrari F12berlinetta. So I have to tend to agree with the authors: those of you who might complain that $75,000 is too much for a mere Camaro, stick that up your pipe and smoke it.

DISCUSSION (77)

Big Bubba Ray > sm70- why not Duesenberg?
09/16/2014 at 23:36

This car is going to be insane. Could you link the article?

Logansteno: Bought a VW? > sm70- why not Duesenberg?
09/16/2014 at 23:37

Fat pig turned exotic killer.

Go Chevy performance department.

Obligatory "Your move Ford."

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > Big Bubba Ray
09/16/2014 at 23:38

It's not online yet.

DoYouEvenShift > sm70- why not Duesenberg?
09/16/2014 at 23:38

Are the results out already? These are the results I wad predicting!!!!! Go Camaro!

ly2v8-Brian > sm70- why not Duesenberg?
09/16/2014 at 23:40

Kinja'd!!!

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > Logansteno: Bought a VW?
09/16/2014 at 23:41

Ford, you'll remember, won everyone's hearts & minds with the 662hp, 200mph Shelby GT500 . Then, Chevy raised the bar with the Z28. Then Dodge, who everyone thought had been off in a corner somewhere and not paying attention, came out with the Challenger-who-shall-not-be-named. The war is far from over. Trust me, Ford will make a move. And then so will Chevy. And then Ford again, and then Chevy again, and then eventually Dodge.

CRider > sm70- why not Duesenberg?
09/16/2014 at 23:42

Impressive, although it is sitting on 305 section Pirelli P Zero Trofeo R front tires.

mcseanerson > Logansteno: Bought a VW?
09/16/2014 at 23:42

#STIELOWISKING

Logansteno: Bought a VW? > sm70- why not Duesenberg?
09/16/2014 at 23:42

I'm waiting for the 1000hp for under $100k mark to be broken.

It's going to happen eventually. Probably by Dodge at this rate.

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > CRider
09/16/2014 at 23:43

Is there in issue with that? I'm not tire-savvy.

mcseanerson > ly2v8-Brian
09/16/2014 at 23:43

Where is this from? I thought I had watched every Z/28 video there is and I have not seen this.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > sm70- why not Duesenberg?
09/16/2014 at 23:43

Dodge already has a FI Viper in the plans, so that's gonna be interesting.

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > Logansteno: Bought a VW?
09/16/2014 at 23:43

Or Kia...

You never know.

mcseanerson > Logansteno: Bought a VW?
09/16/2014 at 23:44

We don't need production cars for that. Twin turbo V8 muscle cars have been doing that for years. I'm waiting for the domestics to finally give us proper turbocharged V8s instead of this supercharged BS that people keep accepting like it's the promised land. Superchargers are a lie.

Logansteno: Bought a VW? > sm70- why not Duesenberg?
09/16/2014 at 23:45

Hyundai sudden reveals a twin turbo'd Tau V8 Genesis coupe making 900 horsepower

Bandit > sm70- why not Duesenberg?
09/16/2014 at 23:45

Is it bad that at first glance I thought "I really love these Hellcat pictures!"

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > Logansteno: Bought a VW?
09/16/2014 at 23:45

Stranger things have happened

Logansteno: Bought a VW? > mcseanerson
09/16/2014 at 23:46

Who cares how it's charged so long as it's making all that power.

I prefer superchargers anyway. Everyone and their mother is using turbos.

CRider > Logansteno: Bought a VW?
09/16/2014 at 23:46

If I were to bet, I'd say Chevy. They haven't had a chance to be top dog in the muscle car power wars yet, so they need to come out with a shocker. I'd put the next gen Camaro (and late C7 Corvettes) in the 900 hp+ range.

mcseanerson > sm70- why not Duesenberg?
09/16/2014 at 23:46

I think he's just saying it has a ton of super sticky rubber. Motor Trend already did a test swapping 1LE wheels and tires with Z/28 wheels and tires and ran both cars. The results are enlightening.

DoYouEvenShift > sm70- why not Duesenberg?
09/16/2014 at 23:46

Kinja'd!!!

Here's pretty much how it went down. Tailights!!!!

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > Bandit
09/16/2014 at 23:46

Not at all.

Logansteno: Bought a VW? > sm70- why not Duesenberg?
09/16/2014 at 23:47

Like Hyundai actually making good cars.

Logansteno: Bought a VW? > CRider
09/16/2014 at 23:47

I was gonna say that, but people would call my bias.

Please let this be the case.

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > mcseanerson
09/16/2014 at 23:47

Is making a car faster by fitting enormous sticky race-type tires considered "cheating"?

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > Logansteno: Bought a VW?
09/16/2014 at 23:48

Yeah, that was weird.

But hey, I'm not gonna complain.

CRider > sm70- why not Duesenberg?
09/16/2014 at 23:49

That's the widest front tire on any road car, including the Veyron. It's just throwing rubber at a car until it sticks to corners, which is a crude but effective way to improve lap times.

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > CRider
09/16/2014 at 23:50

Crude but effective. It is still a Camaro, after all.

ly2v8-Brian > mcseanerson
09/16/2014 at 23:50

Not sure but it is a glorious gif

Enjoy some music

Not sure if they were pushing it as hard as possible, but I love how high that Gmeter gets and there is no tire squeal.

Logansteno: Bought a VW? > sm70- why not Duesenberg?
09/16/2014 at 23:50

I just want a Genesis coupe with a naturally aspirated Tau.

I mean that big 3.8 V6 is apparently pretty good, but common, shove your V8 in there!

CRider > Logansteno: Bought a VW?
09/16/2014 at 23:51

I think it will be a while before Chryler out guns the Hellcat. Here's to hoping, though.

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > Logansteno: Bought a VW?
09/16/2014 at 23:51

I gotta say, the Tau really is a surprisingly good motor. It's more smooth and refined than any Hyundai should be.

mcseanerson > Logansteno: Bought a VW?
09/16/2014 at 23:52

Parasitic loss. You wanna know why you don't see 1,000 hp production cars? That's why. Nobody doing a full tilt build does superchargers. They're lazy and it's for people who want to buy less parts and engineer a simpler motor. If I want a simpler motor and don't wanna bother with a turbo then I want a naturally aspirated rev monster. If I want to deal with the complexity of boost I'm not going to bother with an intercooled supercharged motor and waste everyone's time. I'm gonna put a turbo on each manifold and I'm gonna crank up the boost.

Every 100 horsepower you make with a turbo you lose 10 to the turbo. Every 100 horsepower you make with a supercharger you're giving up 30 to the supercharger. Plus superchargers get worse gas mileage. They're lazy and I hate them.

mcseanerson > sm70- why not Duesenberg?
09/16/2014 at 23:53

Not in my opinion. Not like there's any rules that says the other guys can't do it.

mcseanerson > CRider
09/16/2014 at 23:55

Worth reading. The Z/28 is a lot more than just fat tires.

Logansteno: Bought a VW? > mcseanerson
09/16/2014 at 23:55

"less parts"

"simpler motor"

Welp, there's your reasoning why their using them.

I'd rather they make a 700hp monster with a supercharger and charge me less than one with turbos and make it more. I bet superchargers are more reliable too.

RMudkips > CRider
09/16/2014 at 23:55

Hell, the Ferrari people that came along with the F12 complained about the rubber as well.

mcseanerson > Logansteno: Bought a VW?
09/16/2014 at 23:58

You'd be wrong. Turbo's are gentler on motors. They build pressure gradually and don't put any extra strain on the motor to generate their boost. Simpler than a Turbo doesn't equal more reliable. The whole reason my dad doesn't want me to ever buy a turbo vehicle is he thinks boost is boost no matter where it comes from and he had a bad experience with his Riviera's supercharger failing when the car was less than six years old.

Again if you want simple just run a naturally aspirated motor like the LS7.

colorfulyawn > sm70- why not Duesenberg?
09/17/2014 at 00:02

Damn, faster than the Stingray? I did not expect that. I mean, it only has like a 50-hp advantage over it, and quite a significant weight and suspension disadvantage. I'm impressed.

Logansteno: Bought a VW? > mcseanerson
09/17/2014 at 00:04

Okay, whatever, damn.

I've never seen someone get so worked up over supercharging versus turbocharging. Who cares!? Horsepower either way!

DoYouEvenShift > sm70- why not Duesenberg?
09/17/2014 at 00:05

Now I cant wait to see the new Z06 and V series cars lay more rubber smackdown!

Saracen > sm70- why not Duesenberg?
09/17/2014 at 00:08

the GT500 is not comparable to the Z28.

GT500 vs ZL1

Boss 302 Laguna Seca vs Z28

I'm interested to see what the GT350 has got goin on..

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > Saracen
09/17/2014 at 00:08

I was more meaning that of late, the "Muscle car of the moment" has been changing rapidly.

Saracen > sm70- why not Duesenberg?
09/17/2014 at 00:11

Don't care how fast it is. Not interested. The Camaro completely turned me off with horrific outward visibility when I drove one. It's like driving a pillbox.

mcseanerson > Logansteno: Bought a VW?
09/17/2014 at 00:12

When you get old little shit starts pissing you off. Why do you think Clint Eastwood is always yelling at chairs and telling people to get off his lawn. Superchargers bug me though. I have a huge GM bias and I hated the ZL1 Camaro. If you asked me if I wanted a ZL1 or a Boss302 for free I would not have hesitated and taken the keys to the Boss.

For Sweden > CRider
09/17/2014 at 00:12

I'm reminded of the time when a Lincoln (MKZ I think) with super-sticky rubber out-slalomed a BMW M5 on stock rubber. The lesson is to wide-tire all the things.

I wonder how the S80 would perform on 305 section tires.

StoneCold > Logansteno: Bought a VW?
09/17/2014 at 00:14

Oh, I've seen it get much worse. In person too.

If I don't have the luxury of a lift and ample time, it goes NA > Supercharger > Turbo for me. Keeping it on the road more often is more important than making it go fast.

CRider > mcseanerson
09/17/2014 at 00:22

Yes, it's also a V6 Camaro worth of carbon brakes. And the Flowtie : )

mcseanerson > CRider
09/17/2014 at 00:23

You're forgetting the suspension.

CRider > For Sweden
09/17/2014 at 00:27

Give the S80 Michelin Piot Super Sports like the MKZ had and it would probably out corner an M5, too.

CRider > mcseanerson
09/17/2014 at 00:28

No, I'm not forgetting anything.

ly2v8-Brian > mcseanerson
09/17/2014 at 00:30

Kinja'd!!!

mcseanerson > CRider
09/17/2014 at 00:37

If you read the article you'd see there's a lot more than tires going on. You'd also see that the 1LE stopped from 60 mph in a shorter distance than the Z/28 as well so it's also more than brakes. Keep writing it off all you want but it also beat the 997 GT3 around the track in the recent Drive video.

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

While the skidpad will tell you what a car's absolute steady state handling limit is, it's not much of a real-world test since you don't ever drive in continuous circles at a steady speed. Still, it's an instructive number that indicates how a car should perform at the limit in a corner. Here, again, a wider, stickier tire should have an advantage.Fit the 1LE with the Z/28's Pirellis and you'll definitely see an advantage. With its stock Goodyear tires, the 1LE pulled 1.02 g average on the skidpad. Upfitted with the Pirellis, the 1LE pulls an even more impressive 1.05 g average. The numbers don't look big, but a 0.03g average improvement is significant.

More on Automotive.com:

Putting the Z/28 on the 1LE's Goodyears also makes a difference, but not the exact opposite effect you might expect. On its stock Pirellis, the Z/28 pulls 1.06 g average (0.01 g more than the 1LE on the same tires). Downgraded to the Goodyears, the Z/28 pulls 1.04 g average. Not only is that still 0.02 average g more than the stock 1LE on the same tires, the difference between the two tires' performance is smaller for the Z/28 than it is for the 1LE (plus 0.03 g average for the 1LE, minus 0.02 g average for the Z/28).

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

Where the skidpad fails to apply to real-world driving, our unique figure-eight test picks up the slack. Consisting of two 200-foot-diameter skidpads separated by 500 feet center-to-center, the figure eight tests cornering, acceleration, braking, and the transitions between each. Here, the tires must grip under braking, hold on through the corner, and put the power down at the exit. Once again, the wider, stickier tire should have the advantage.The 1LE, on its stock Goodyears, completes the figure eight in 24.1 seconds at 0.85 g average. On the Z/28's Pirellis, the 1LE completed the figure eight in … 24.1 seconds at 0.83 g average. Not only did it not gain an advantage, the 1LE actually recorded a lower average g figure in the corners.The Z/28, meanwhile, was hobbled, but not as much as you'd expect. On its stock Pirellis, the Z/28 runs around the figure eight in 23.6 seconds at 0.84 g average. On the 1LE's Goodyears, the Z/28 ran the figure eight in 24.1 seconds at 0.84 g average.What's going on here? Test driver Kim Reynolds has an answer. In stock form, Kim says, the 1LE is razor-sharp. With the Z/28's tires, it just felt mushy. The precision was gone, and for no measureable gain. Conversely, Kim says the stock Z/28 is predictable and balanced. On the 1LE's tires, it became much less predictable and much more prone to oversteer. Given there was no change in average cornering g, it's reasonable to conclude that the Z/28's diminished performance is the result of its inability to stop as quickly (despite having significantly larger brakes) or put the power down as effectively. True, the Z/28 does have a power advantage over the 1LE, but in the space of less than 500 feet, 79 hp and 61 lb-ft don't make a lot of difference (and despite what you may think, our scales say the Z/28's weight advantage over the 1LE is just 35 pounds).

mcseanerson > ly2v8-Brian
09/17/2014 at 00:38

Exactly.

CRider > mcseanerson
09/17/2014 at 00:39

I was making a joke. Take your Z/28 Jihad to someone that cares- and DOESN'T already know everything in that article.

The Transporter > Logansteno: Bought a VW?
09/17/2014 at 00:47

Indeed!

The Transporter > CRider
09/17/2014 at 00:48

Chris Harris didn't seem to have a problem with that. Just sayin'...

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > sm70- why not Duesenberg?
09/17/2014 at 01:03

That's 20mm wider than an SL65 uses on the rear 50mm wider than its fronts. I would give examples of other cars, but I don't know other brands off the top of my head.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > mcseanerson
09/17/2014 at 01:15

There are disadvantages to this approach as well, especially for long-term owners. Wide fronts increase the width of tire scrubbing against the ground which increases tire wear and steering system load during parking lot maneuvers especially. This translates to more tire replacements at probably $400 per tire, as well as decreased longevity of steering system components. Also increased unsprung weight (probably). To me this is analogous to professional athletes who use performance enhancing drugs, just without ethical implications. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just offering the other side of the wide tire story.

CRider > The Transporter
09/17/2014 at 01:34

I'm not saying I have a problem with it.

Too many M's > sm70- why not Duesenberg?
09/17/2014 at 02:47

This is awesome. I love that Chevy didn't follow the ways of Porsche and clip the wings on this bad boy. The engineers were told to not worry about the rest of the lineup and just build the best Camaro they could.

This begs the question...with the Z/28 being this good, how INSANE is the Z06 going to be?

DanZman > sm70- why not Duesenberg?
09/17/2014 at 03:37

the endless propaganda machine will never convince me that this is a good car! Impressive time, but I'm just so not a fan of the car.

Kailand09 > sm70- why not Duesenberg?
09/17/2014 at 06:29

Holy shit, that's great.

Also, my mind immediately goes to : oh my god how fast will the Z06 be

BKRM3 > CRider
09/17/2014 at 06:40

Came here to say this. Why didn't they just ship it on a set of Hoosier R6es and call it a day? Lol.

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > Too many M's
09/17/2014 at 08:16

I would have to imagine it will absolutely thrash everything.

Danimalk - Drives a Slow Car Fast > Logansteno: Bought a VW?
09/17/2014 at 08:16

I'm with you. This dude is picky about his BHPs.

"...had a bad experience with his Riviera's supercharger failing when the car was less than six years old."

The source of his bias? Probably. Never mind that that model is about a decade out of production.

PRBot II > sm70- why not Duesenberg?
09/17/2014 at 08:27

Kinja'd!!!

theuserformerlyknownasaluminumfoil > Saracen
09/17/2014 at 08:29

It is quite cocooned yes.. I enjoyed my drive in one, although it was only an SS, I loved that feeling. You don't lose much visibility, if you adjust your mirrors correctly, IMO.

Kamina1984 > Logansteno: Bought a VW?
09/17/2014 at 10:45

I'm more than sure that we'll see this very thing happen in within the next 5 years.

Stephen > sm70- why not Duesenberg?
09/17/2014 at 10:55

It's not cheating but it makes for a poor comparison. I haven't read the C&D article to see what tires the other cars were running but ideally you would have all cars on the same tires or at least the same type of tire (summer, all-season, competition). Changing tires alone can make a huge difference in lap times.

Saracen > theuserformerlyknownasaluminumfoil
09/17/2014 at 12:18

I didn't really like driving it either. Terrible understeer.

sirbasilfawlty > PRBot II
09/17/2014 at 12:23

Great. Now I'm going to hell for laughing at this.

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > Stephen
09/17/2014 at 12:43

I would almost think the opposite-shouldn't all the cars run on whatever they came out of the factory with? That's how they did it.

Stephen > sm70- why not Duesenberg?
09/17/2014 at 12:58

You're probably right. In the context of performance cars, tire selection is much more deliberate and specific than, say, tires for a Corolla. In some cases the manufacturer will work with the tire manufacturers to design a tire that is produced exclusively for a specific model. For example, Porsche did this with Michelin on the Carrera GT.

However, in comparison tests like the C&D Lightning Lap where the main basis for comparison is lap times, I think it should be noted when tires are considered to have given a significant advantage in the comparison.

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > Stephen
09/17/2014 at 12:59

They had a hole paragraph or two on the Camaro's tires, and how the Ferrari guys whined about them a little.

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > PRBot II
01/07/2015 at 15:07

Lol remembering all the trivial shit this caused

PRBot II > sm70- why not Duesenberg?
01/07/2015 at 15:43

Haha, I remember that. Good times, good times.